FTM: Welcome back to Face The Music. The PM has generously agreed to interrupt his cruising holiday to appear on our program. Thank you, PM.

PM: Glad to be here.

FTM: During the break you announced that you are retiring. Is there a reason for this sudden decision?

PM: Actually, it is not so sudden. I have been thinking about it for a long time.

FTM: How long, approximately?

PM: A long time. About six months, I think.

FTM: Did you tell anyone about your retirement decision?

PM: No. I confided in no one, not even my wife and family.

FTM: The Malaysian stock market has been under pressure for a time. Do you think anyone guessed you were planning to retire?

PM: I don't think so. The stock market has a life of its own, and what I do has little effect on it.

FTM: Have you noticed that Malaysian stocks have taken a significant drop in the past week, and that your announcement has accelerated the fall?

PM: There is an uncertainty factor that affects investor confidence. Whenever there is uncertainty the markets react, sometimes violently. The reaction has been restrained, and I think our projections for improved conditions are still realistic. I say this in spite of the drop in other markets. We are able to go up when others are going down.

FTM: Were you surprised to see such a drop, especially when the volumes are relatively light?

PM: I haven't noticed.

FTM: But aren't you also the Finance Minister? As Finance Minister you must take an active role in the economic health of your country?

PM: There are times when the demands of one office conflict with another. I have to make difficult choices, and the market may misunderstand the true situation.

FTM: Your announcement suggests you plan to give less attention to both offices. Is that your intent?

PM: There are other people. As PM I have relied on their advice, and they must learn to act without me there to hold their hand.

FTM: Are you responsible for their decisions?

PM: Technically, yes. But remember, I still be around to prevent and correct any serious errors.

FTM: You are saying that even though you want to retire, you will still take responsibility for the direction of the economy?

PM: I get credit for the successes, but I also get the blame for all the failures. People think I am responsible for every pothole in the streets. Now that I am retiring, perhaps there will be less personal criticism. Also, less disturbance about the government provides security for the present Cabinet and administration. After such a long time we have learned how to operate the government smoothly, and this should give foreign investors assurance that we are a safe haven for their capital.

FTM: Do you mean that the opposition will go lighter on your administration, now that you have agreed to step down?

PM: That is certainly to be expected. When I am on a trip, the opposition dies down. The plan is to stay out of the country, removing the major target of our critics.

FTM: You have said this decision was personal in nature. By resigning on such short notice, you have created something of a vacuum in leadership. Have you considered the consequences of that?

PM: I think the problem will correct itself. There are others who can carry on in my absence.

FTM: Political observers, not necessarily critics, say that your announcement gives an appearance of weakness, that you are refusing to face stressful conditions that are increasing. In effect, they say you are running away from your responsibilities. How do you respond?

PM: Nonsense. I may have short periods of emotion now and again, but I have never run away from anything in my life. I certainly am not going to start now.

FTM: And you are willing to provide consultation and training during a transition period?

PM: Yes, that way there will be continuity, removing any destabilisation or uncertainty.

FTM: Are you maintaining contact with your Deputy and Ministers while you are on holiday?

PM: Certainly. I cannot always be on holiday out of the country if I am out of touch. There might be an emergency.

FTM: You are staying on until next October in order to convene the OIC meeting in Putrajaya?

PM: Principally for that, but also to give my deputy time to learn to carry on independently.

FTM: Your deputy agrees to this?

PM: Oh, yes. In fact, it is his suggestion.

FTM: Don't you think that makes him appear unprepared, even incapable?

PM: No. It is impossible to just assume office without some period of instruction, especially after a predecessor has been a long time in office, as I have.

FTM: How long has he been an executive officer in your party? I mean, how much time has he had to learn his duties?

PM: He has been my deputy since my last deputy was sacked.

FTM: That would be Anwar Ibrahim?

PM: Yes, he is now serving time for his immoral conduct.

FTM: I believe you said at the time that he was discharged for the allegations against him?

PM: Yes.

FTM: You have often said that you believe in the rule of law, is that still true?

PM: Yes.

FTM: Does that include a presumption of innocence until proven guilty?

PM: Ordinarily, yes, but there are cases in which these considerations are outweighed by concerns for national security and well being.

FTM: Who decides when these cases arise?

PM: It is a joint decision, ordinary taken by the Cabinet, after investigation by the police.

FTM: You seem to believe that the principle may be broken without much concern for public opinion. Aren't you afraid the people will object to these cases, when there is no evidence produced to support formal charges?

PM: Many of these cases involve investigations that touch on secret operations, and these methods and sources must be protected. Even the US now agrees that this policy of preemptive arrest is the best, given the present circumstances.

FTM: You are referring to the war on terrorism declared by President Bush?

PM: The problem has existed for us long before that. Only after the attack on the US mainland did the US understand the problem.

FTM: You use the Internal Security Act to arrest people. This law seems to exist because there was a Communist threat, is that right?

PM: While that is technically true, we have found it especially useful in dealing with cases of terrorism.

FTM: You have arrested the leaders of your opposition, and sentenced them to long prison sentences. There was no allegation that they were involved in terrorist acts, was there?

PM: yes. They were planning to hold street demonstrations and marches that would make a bad impression on foreign investors and tourists. We had to put a stop to that before it got out of hand.

FTM: Then the ISA law is also used for the purpose of eliminating overt political activity?

PM: Those are your terms. We think of such activity as a threat to internal disorder.

FTM: The law provides for arrest and detention without trial?

PM: That's the way the law is written. It allows for sixty days of investigation.

FTM: Those arrested say your police use torture in order to extract false confessions. In the case of Anwar Ibrahim, the Chief of Police personally gave him a brutal beating in the national police headquarters. Isn't that true?

PM: It hasn't been settled. There is a possibility the black eye was self-inflicted. He was seeking sympathy.

FTM: But wasn't there an official inquiry, which found the Inspector General of Police guilty?

PM: It is wrong to impute ill will to the entire government for the acts of an individual. While it is true that there may have been abuse of authority in this case, it is not fair to say it is a more widespread problem than it really is.

FTM: You are personally opposed to police brutality?

PM: Certainly. Any person of conscience would condemn such behaviour.

FTM: Have you publicly condemned it?

PM: I don't have to. Everyone knows my stand on that.

FTM: Have you directed any investigation of police practices in these admittedly irregular cases of arrest under the ISA?

PM: If such allegations are brought by credible police reports, I will look into them?

FTM: You have a Human Rights Commission. They have made several investigations into standard police practices, and indicated that abuses are indeed taking place on a routine basis. Have you acted to curb these abuses?

PM: We take such allegations seriously. We have made changes at the police training academy to provide guidance to the new recruits.

FTM: Have you personally ordered any investigation into the reports of mistreatment of those arrested by the police?

PM: I always take an interest in allegations of police misbehaviour. On the other hand, it is important to maintain morale in the police force.

FTM: It is said that the higher echelon of the national police force is handsomely rewarded, that they retire as billionaires. Does this suggest there is corruption in the police department?

PM: The training and experience that officers receive in public service is excellent preparation for other personal decisions and business activities. These are not the immediate purview of the government, and we cannot object to the use of personal initiative.

FTM: But don't you think it makes a bad impression when people in public office are seen to accumulate great wealth from unknown sources? Don't you investigate the sources of this money?

PM: People say things like this, and it affects morale. So we generally keep such matters away from the public.

FTM: Do you do that through censorship of the media?

PM: No, the media is free to report as they please.

FTM: Isn't the media owned and controlled by the government?

PM: People say there is editorial control through ownership of the stock, but the truth is that the editorial policies are free of government or political influence.

FTM: You have a policy of delaying the distributorship of weekly magazines that carry stories critical of you and your administration. Is that true?

PM: In any large organisation there are going to be delays from time to time. That cannot be helped.

FTM: You are saying that these delays are of a bureaucratic nature, and not intended as financial punishment for adverse commentary?

PM: If we took notice of criticism there would be little time for anything else. We take it in the course of routine business, only responding when it requires clarification. Otherwise we ignore it.

FTM: In the case of the ISA, it appears that the law itself is illegal, in that it is only operative in times of national emergency. Your country has maintained this 'emergency' status almost since its independence, isn't that true?

PM: The law is under review, and if it is safe to restore the normal situation, then we will do that. Just now, given the terrorist threat, that is not possible.

FTM: So you are saying the declaration of a state of emergency is desirable, and that you intend to continue with it? You do not oppose it?

PM: That is correct. The ISA law is essential in maintaining public order.

FTM: Would you be willing to be arrested under the ISA yourself?

PM: No one is arrested for nothing. When there is an arrest it is because there is something to investigate.

FTM: Under your rule of law it is permissible to arrest people and hold them for continuous interrogation?

PM: Often the suspect is the best source of information. We encourage them to talk during the initial investigation period, and if they have nothing to hide we let them go.

FTM: Isn't it a law that a person must be brought before a magistrate for a hearing within 24 hours?

PM: That is for ordinary cases. Under the ISA that is not required.

FTM: Who decides whether to use the ISA or not?

PM: That is a police decision, and we respect their judgment in these matters.

FTM: You say that you respect a rule of law, yet there are loopholes that allow unequal application of the law; does that appear inconsistent to you?

PM: Not at all. These are difficult times, and they call for methods that may seem unorthodox to outsiders. You will notice the even the US, that revered bastion of democracy, is using this method in the war on terrorism. I think they have learned a few lessons from us.

FTM: Do you believe constitutional safeguards of individual rights are secondary to political expediency?

PM: No. We respect individual human rights, and we protect the constitutional guarantees.

FTM: But you have laws that act to repress basic freedoms, and these are applied widely to prevent opposition to your policies. Don't you think you have lost the battle for civilisation when the constitutional guarantees are so easily ignored?

PM: It is always a question of the rights of the majority against the rights of a few. Democracy protects the rights of the majority, and the duty of the government is to use the police and military power to make sure the majority rights are protected.

FTM: Does your deputy agree with your views?

PM: As the Home Minister, he oversees the police. He has personally signed the recent detention orders, and certainly he understands what is at stake. I would not keep him as deputy if he did not understand the situation, and agreed to continue after I have retired.

FTM: So the next year or so is a trial period for him? And you will still maintain control over all his decisions?

PM: What else can I do? Who else can I turn too?

FTM: Isn't the decision on Anwar Ibrahim's appeal due soon? Overdue, in fact? How will you feel if his conviction is overturned?

PM: I have no control over the courts. If they think the charges are not sufficiently proven, or that the trial had other procedural flaws, it may be necessary to try him again.

FTM: Would you do that? After all that has been said about the unfairness of the trial?

PM: It is up to the Attorney General. If he feels the issue is sufficiently important, then he may recommend new charges. I don't control that. The Attorney General acts independently.

FTM: If the verdict is announced while you are on holiday, will you return?

PM: No. I am on holiday, and my deputy will deal with whatever concerns may arise. It is good experience for him. What is a holiday if it is always being interrupted by minor matters such as this?

FTM: One final question. Those arrested state that the charges against them are false, that they are denied access to legal representation. Does your idea of 'rule of law' regard a plea of 'not guilty' as unworthy of record, or not deserving of legal advice? Is the denial of a defense consistent with your concept of justice?

PM: The rule of law is that the law must be obeyed. If no legal access is provided for, then none is allowed. As for 'not guilty' pleas, isn't everyone arrested going to claim they are not guilty?

FTM: Thank you, PM, especially for interrupting your holiday.

PM: You are welcome. I am always glad to represent the country when questions of justice and fair play arise.

FTM: Please stay with us. We will return after a short break. We will then discuss the financial condition of the country and allegations of covering up corruption in the government. PM, again, thank you.

PM: (smiles)